This has been, um, somewhat actively discussed in fannish circles today, but a recent con had a bout of encouraging groping of breasts, justified by the usual tediously specious rhetoric.
In the end, the originator recognized that he'd stirred up more trouble than he ever imagined, but even his "no, wait, maybe not" posting hedges it all and tries to make himself out as someone who only ever had good intentions gone horribly awry. And I have every expectation that he'll get away with it, in the sense that he'll not face any lasting ostracism for having unleashed this thing.
There are times when I think there's something to the argument that half the species just is not ready for prime time, and that it's just a matter of time before any individual unit it melts down. Intellectually, with due consideration, I don't actually believe that - I think that the many good guys I know actually are good guys, and that there are a lot more just like them out in the rest of the world. But I surely do feel a great deal of sympathy with all the women who do not care to have to keep living on their guard, wondering when the next such meltdown will occur and expose them to potential harassment and worse.
If "men" were an ideological group instead of a biological one, I'd say it was well past time to vote them out of office and keep them under tight watch for a good while thereafter. The wrong people are living in fear, I'm thinking.
- Rant: Things I dislike about guys (caution: misandry ahead)
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bruceb- April 22nd, 2008
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This is sheer brilliance. I wouldn't say that I live in fear, but certainly in caution. I'm seeing it as a well intentioned terrible idea, implemented with zero thought for how it might affect anyone outside of their immediate group.
If the whole flap gets people to think and have a little empathy, then that's something good.
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Well, in total annoyance, if not all-out fear.
Being angry and pissed-off all the time is bad juju too, I'm thinking.
It’s funny how my response to this is different from yours.
After stumbling upon this, and reading the commentaries and responses, while also skimming the original post, all I could do is LOL at the sheer amount of FAIL the OP has generated:
- Transparent grab for MOAR BEWBS disguised as altruistic move to ‘liberate’ wimminz? Check.
- Clumsy attempts to clarify, followed by clumsy apology? Check.
- Ham-fisted way of dealing with comments, followed by mass deletions and suppression? Check.
- Passive-aggressive tagging of posts? HAHAHA OMG CHECK.
There was a point when I would have despaired about all of this, and yeah, I would have been very hard on my gender. I don’t generally entertain those thoughts anymore, primarily for personal reasons, but also because I’ve noticed, in me at any rate, how tightly entwined those sentiments are with my Creepy Nice Guy tendency.
Also, apart from point # 1? Thanks to my time spent in Fandom Wank, I’ve realized that this sort of folly is something that both genders do.
Stuff like this embarrasses me. And makes me feel sad for the women I know, that they have to experience it and fear it. And also makes me nervous, because I worry that I might be doing similarly stupid things out of ignorance and no one has politely told me yet.
But that would be just embarrassing to everyone involved, not to mention rude... besides, he must know and just not care, I mean it's so obvious... no, don't stare! Look, just don't say anything and try to ignore it. That's the kindest thing to do.
Mostly I am. But pointing out how it could happen, problems going unaddressed, out of a desire to be "polite" and not cause trouble or (further) embarrassment.
It's not necessarily a joke. Women are so trained not to make waves that SOME will not speak up even when a man is completely out of line. And while one can justifiably say such women need to learn to stand up for themselves, it is also justifiable to say that until we change the culture they're going to feel a lot less supported in their efforts to be more assertive.
.02...
.02...
Which is one of the things that gets on my nerves, since I tend to rely on input on my behavior in order for me to improve. I can't read minds.
One of the reasons I got along so well withhanishoney is the fact that the both of us can, and often will, tell the other person when they're out of line, which is something that I do a lot, since I've been told that I have a... difficult personality.
Okay, so I'm obnoxious.
One of the reasons I got along so well with
hanishoney is the fact that the both of us can, and often will, tell the other person when they're out of line, which is something that I do a lot, since I've been told that I have a... difficult personality.Okay, so I'm obnoxious.
Well, I ain't sayin' it's easy to be on the guy side of the equation either. All a person can do is do their best, err on the side of caution in case of doubt, and ask for feedback. Mindreading is impossible and you can't force people to give feedback if they don't want to. And I know this from close personal experience of dealing with people of either sex who expected me to read their minds. It is indeed most annoying. So yes, I can have compassion with the position of a guy who wants to do the right thing but is not getting the feedback that would best help him.
But unfortunately there are a lot of guys who think that the fact that it can be difficult to communicate with women about issues like this completely excuses them from even making the attempt (as if it weren't difficult for women too). It doesn't sound like you're one of them, but they are definitely out there...
But unfortunately there are a lot of guys who think that the fact that it can be difficult to communicate with women about issues like this completely excuses them from even making the attempt (as if it weren't difficult for women too). It doesn't sound like you're one of them, but they are definitely out there...
Oh, I know that. It's just, you know. The expectations of mind-reading. GGGNNN!
Yeah I know...If you can get into the mindset of the person who is not communicating, and think about the shame or fear or cultural training that might be inhibiting them from speaking and how that must feel, it does make it easier to not go bonkers from the frustration of wishing they'd just say what's on their mind already.
Again speaking from experience. :-) And on both sides, on that score...(I know what it is to be frustrated with someone who seems to feel they're not allowed to articulate their needs and so refuses to. But I have also often been the woman feeling that I want/need to say something but also feeling that I shouldn't, or that there's no socially acceptable way to say it, or that it's so complex I can't even figure out how to articulate it, or that saying something will only make it worse...)
Again speaking from experience. :-) And on both sides, on that score...(I know what it is to be frustrated with someone who seems to feel they're not allowed to articulate their needs and so refuses to. But I have also often been the woman feeling that I want/need to say something but also feeling that I shouldn't, or that there's no socially acceptable way to say it, or that it's so complex I can't even figure out how to articulate it, or that saying something will only make it worse...)
Oh, I know the feeling. I've just come out of a rather nasty kerfuffle with a friend which was caused by me calling her out in a rather nasty, tactless way, because I had misread signals. I can see that in some cases the desire to keep quiet warranted, because it is complicated.
To the people who believe the outrage surpasses the crime, I just point them to Lisa Jackson's documentary The Greatest Silence: Rape in the Congo and the message sent by the men interviewed. Where does one draw the line?
What I want to know, before I get into this, is how the example you've given is correlated to what's been happening so far.
In Ms. Jackson's film, several Congolese soldiers discuss their victimization of women. They believe that, by raping their own countrywomen, they will be empowered to win the decade-long civil war which plagues the eastern half of their country. One even went so far as to state that he would do nothing to stop the rape of his mother, his sisters or his wife if it would bring eventual victory.
The first step toward victimization, of women or anyone, is to dehumanize them, objectify them. Once they cease to be human beings in the eyes of their assailants, all manner of behavior becomes possible. All it takes for the OSBP to turn ugly is a few people deciding that they are privileged, deciding that they have a right to cross boundaries, invade personal space, press someone in the face of a refusal.
Doesn't take much to see how violation of someone's personal space in small ways could lead to far more egregious violations.
The first step toward victimization, of women or anyone, is to dehumanize them, objectify them. Once they cease to be human beings in the eyes of their assailants, all manner of behavior becomes possible. All it takes for the OSBP to turn ugly is a few people deciding that they are privileged, deciding that they have a right to cross boundaries, invade personal space, press someone in the face of a refusal.
Doesn't take much to see how violation of someone's personal space in small ways could lead to far more egregious violations.
Oh, this was the place with the fistulas in the women and children caused by rape, wasn't it.
I've read articles on issues surrounding this region, and I get the feeling that the causes of the violence surrounding women isn't just the soldiers dehumanizing the women.
I've read articles on issues surrounding this region, and I get the feeling that the causes of the violence surrounding women isn't just the soldiers dehumanizing the women.
It's kind of weak to quote movies in response to this sort of thing, but I must confess that, having read the original post that started the whole mess, then seeing your "things I dislike about guys" title to THIS post, the first thing that popped into my head was a Lili Taylor line from Say Anything, which I'd paraphrase as "Don't be a guy. The world has plenty of 'guys.' Be a man."
To which I'd add, "And also? Don't be a dick."
I'm in total agreement with you, man.
To which I'd add, "And also? Don't be a dick."
I'm in total agreement with you, man.
And people wonder why someone like me likes guns so much.
- Mel
(Completely tongue-in-cheek - I actually like the discipline it takes to do Olympic-style shooting more.)
- Mel
(Completely tongue-in-cheek - I actually like the discipline it takes to do Olympic-style shooting more.)
Several of the handicapped women I know are that way about target shooting, too. It's a useful combination of physical precision and mental coordination and they get to shoot stuff up. Works for me.
Reminds me of a comment:
'Men are afraid women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid men will kill them.'
(touches Bruce's hair)
'Men are afraid women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid men will kill them.'
(touches Bruce's hair)
*laugh* Actually it's from a painting of mine called "Platypus Lays the Sun." My art is...err...odd.
I'm actually a fan of your stuff, but I had not seen the platypus one.
- Mel
- Mel
Yeah. Now I have to Google where that quote originally came from...
'Men are afraid women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid men will kill them.'
This is sheer brilliance. I wouldn't say that I live in fear, but certainly in caution. I'm seeing it as a well intentioned terrible idea, implemented with zero thought for how it might affect anyone outside of their immediate group.
If the whole flap gets people to think and have a little empathy, then that's something good.
I managed to surf over here and thought I'd leave my two cents since I marginally know you and used to work with Ferrett. Our professional relationship stumbled under arguments like this.
I honestly do think he had the best of intentions, they were just somewhat solipsistic, privileged, intentions to begin with. I know it's hard to believe, but I can see how he'd think this was a good idea. He's a really sex-positive guy who, in my opinion, isn't great at putting himself in the position of others and has a poor grasp of male privilege. So while it might have been a great experience in a small self-selecting group, he didn't anticipate the amount of awful it would amount to for a wider audience.
I strongly disagree with the project and it's handling, but feel confident in saying it was severely misguided as opposed to actively evil. Personally, I find it a relief that it's not quite as callously manipulative as it comes off, yet disturbing that the juxtaposition of a few blind spots can yield such juggernaut of badness. I just feel kind of bad for him because I think he's going to be "that guy" for a long time even though he didn't mean to.
I honestly do think he had the best of intentions, they were just somewhat solipsistic, privileged, intentions to begin with. I know it's hard to believe, but I can see how he'd think this was a good idea. He's a really sex-positive guy who, in my opinion, isn't great at putting himself in the position of others and has a poor grasp of male privilege. So while it might have been a great experience in a small self-selecting group, he didn't anticipate the amount of awful it would amount to for a wider audience.
I strongly disagree with the project and it's handling, but feel confident in saying it was severely misguided as opposed to actively evil. Personally, I find it a relief that it's not quite as callously manipulative as it comes off, yet disturbing that the juxtaposition of a few blind spots can yield such juggernaut of badness. I just feel kind of bad for him because I think he's going to be "that guy" for a long time even though he didn't mean to.
Roni's right, which happens a lot, I'm learning. I've gotten to know Ferrett over the last year, year and a half (he was on the panel I coopted to propose to Wednesday, he and I have had a reasonable number of discussions, we've had Raymond Chandler drinks together, and most significantly he's married to and introduced Weds and I to the lawyer who successfully navigated Weds and I into our current positive situation), and he legitimately is a nice, albeit sometimes naive guy.
I'm pretty sure that this was a positive experience for Ferrett and his friends in what was a controlled, self-selecting environment, and I think he had no real sense or expectation it would become the rolling juggernaut of suck it did. There's lots of ways -- beyond even questions of male privilege and the many, many ways this could be creepy or actively trigger-y for a lot of people of both sexes -- this is just a plain bad idea, but I think his intentions were good.
Honestly, after decades in fandom and con-life, the other side of all this for me was how... well, common this 'epiphany' is. We've all had some experience in SF fandom -- doesn't the core premise ("if we could just eliminate the baggage surrounding our bodies and sex and reach out and connect with each other without all the stuff getting in the way, life would be awesome and there would be no war!") sound like something one out of three 19 year old male Heinlein fans come up with at least once? And I say that as a 40 year old male Heinlein fan.
So, yeah. He was as Roni says solipsistic and privileged here, with a dose of naiveté thrown in to taste. And his handling of all this was ham-handed at best (though the mass-deletions have been reversed, and I'm willing to accept they were truly unintentional). And also like Roni says, I think he's going to be "that guy" for a while, and I feel badly for him too.
I'm not sure I added anything of substance here, mind, other than to say "Roni is a smart person."
Edited at 2008-04-23 03:45 pm (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that this was a positive experience for Ferrett and his friends in what was a controlled, self-selecting environment, and I think he had no real sense or expectation it would become the rolling juggernaut of suck it did. There's lots of ways -- beyond even questions of male privilege and the many, many ways this could be creepy or actively trigger-y for a lot of people of both sexes -- this is just a plain bad idea, but I think his intentions were good.
Honestly, after decades in fandom and con-life, the other side of all this for me was how... well, common this 'epiphany' is. We've all had some experience in SF fandom -- doesn't the core premise ("if we could just eliminate the baggage surrounding our bodies and sex and reach out and connect with each other without all the stuff getting in the way, life would be awesome and there would be no war!") sound like something one out of three 19 year old male Heinlein fans come up with at least once? And I say that as a 40 year old male Heinlein fan.
So, yeah. He was as Roni says solipsistic and privileged here, with a dose of naiveté thrown in to taste. And his handling of all this was ham-handed at best (though the mass-deletions have been reversed, and I'm willing to accept they were truly unintentional). And also like Roni says, I think he's going to be "that guy" for a while, and I feel badly for him too.
I'm not sure I added anything of substance here, mind, other than to say "Roni is a smart person."
Edited at 2008-04-23 03:45 pm (UTC)
I think I'm just at a point right now - largely because of the general state of American politics - where "I meant well" carries very little slack with me. I'm sure that I'm sometimes unfair about it, too. It's low on my list of things to worry about.
You said some incredibly cogent stuff over on that thread, by the way. Thank you for at least TRYING to get some very important points through his thick skull.
The thing is, this is a state of fuzzy fun sexual juvenile stuff that I remember from college, in that hazy glow of thinking 'no rules matter! we are free to do whatever! free love, man!'
It takes some experience to realize how self-absorbed and trite that state is.
Yes, you have a penis. Yes, she has boobs. Yes, when people are all hyped up on bubbling hormones and in a safe environment, isn't it wonderful how everyone can maintain a mass-hysteria.
No, it doesn't mean anything significant or magical, and all those social mores/consequences don't magically go away just because a small group can ignore them for a while.
It takes some experience to realize how self-absorbed and trite that state is.
Yes, you have a penis. Yes, she has boobs. Yes, when people are all hyped up on bubbling hormones and in a safe environment, isn't it wonderful how everyone can maintain a mass-hysteria.
No, it doesn't mean anything significant or magical, and all those social mores/consequences don't magically go away just because a small group can ignore them for a while.
Or to be more specific, in my college years I had group-fondle/sex stuff, we found the maximum occupancy of a bed (before it collapsed), and in a haze of hormones and not living with our parents we could believe all sorts of stupid stuff.
It was fun, it was stupid, but it didn't mean anything more than we were learning to function independently and were quite eager to get it on.
It was fun, it was stupid, but it didn't mean anything more than we were learning to function independently and were quite eager to get it on.
Y'know, part of me CAN feel a little sorry for this guy, who clearly had a Nirvana moment of 'wow, what if sex weren't quite so taboo and women's breasts weren't considered inherently dirty?' and clearly was hoping to spread the new religion.
BUT he should certainly have realized that trying to pull this off in a public context like a con was *so inherently bound* to go spectacularly awry and if things got ugly they would get EXTREMELY ugly. At the very least. And further: even a few minutes' meditation on why he was calling this the Open Source Boob Project and not, say, the Open Source Boob and Nuts Project -- or even the Open Source Male and Female Nipples Project -- would probably have been sufficient to enlighten him as to why going forward with this was a very very bad idea.
Not to mention the fact that he was evidently completely ignoring the coercion factor of peer pressure, which I don't see how anybody who went to school could possibly ignore.
And looking at his post, he STILL clearly only about half gets why this was a bad idea. Somebody needs to whap him upside the head with a hardback Dworkin book till the other half jostles into place...
It does spur in ME a rather depressing meditation on how experiencing a euphoric moment of freedom from oppressive sexual puritanic taboos can feel EXACTLY LIKE a euphoric moment of suddenly having one's male privilege of access to female bodies extended to (maybe) every female body within a quarter-mile radius...and how many men wouldn't even be all that interested in the vital difference between the two, or would think that their euphoria could excuse them for any resultant lapses in judgment.
BUT he should certainly have realized that trying to pull this off in a public context like a con was *so inherently bound* to go spectacularly awry and if things got ugly they would get EXTREMELY ugly. At the very least. And further: even a few minutes' meditation on why he was calling this the Open Source Boob Project and not, say, the Open Source Boob and Nuts Project -- or even the Open Source Male and Female Nipples Project -- would probably have been sufficient to enlighten him as to why going forward with this was a very very bad idea.
Not to mention the fact that he was evidently completely ignoring the coercion factor of peer pressure, which I don't see how anybody who went to school could possibly ignore.
And looking at his post, he STILL clearly only about half gets why this was a bad idea. Somebody needs to whap him upside the head with a hardback Dworkin book till the other half jostles into place...
It does spur in ME a rather depressing meditation on how experiencing a euphoric moment of freedom from oppressive sexual puritanic taboos can feel EXACTLY LIKE a euphoric moment of suddenly having one's male privilege of access to female bodies extended to (maybe) every female body within a quarter-mile radius...and how many men wouldn't even be all that interested in the vital difference between the two, or would think that their euphoria could excuse them for any resultant lapses in judgment.
Okay, I just held my nose and looked at the comments and I retract all my sympathy for Ferrett. If he can't even listen when women are trying to explain what's problematic about this? He can twist in the wind.
Well.... a lot of women suck, too. It's just harder for them to direct that at men, so you may see that less. We don't solve this by flipping the power structure; we solve this by patiently reminding everyone that we're all people and all in this together, and maybe the power structure dissolves about as fast as the mountain that the bird sharpens its beak on once a year, but hey, I guess that's progress.
And I actually find sexists who think they're not to be more annoying than those who are at least honest about it. I know that theferret is an attention seeker, but I'm hoping he connects the deluge of negative attention with his behavior and attitudes and learns a little from it.
And I actually find sexists who think they're not to be more annoying than those who are at least honest about it. I know that theferret is an attention seeker, but I'm hoping he connects the deluge of negative attention with his behavior and attitudes and learns a little from it.
2008-04-23 05:39 am (UTC)